The Politics of Parsing: Hillary vs. Hillary - Updated

Looks like there just isn't much let up on Clinton after the debate from any of the campaigns. Guess thats why being the frontrunner for so long with 60 days still to go is never easy.

Here's the latest from the Edwards campaign:

Pretty much says it all. The greatest obstacle to Clinton's campaign appears to be herself. How about we have an election, not a coronation? And a real discussion on the issues.

Updated with a statement from Edwards:
"Now I have a really simple rule," he said. "When you get asked a yes-or-no question, you can't answer it yes-and-no. That doesn't work, and we saw some of that the other night."

"What I heard was Sen. Clinton saying she wanted to be for change, but defending a broken system in Washington," he continued. "Saying that she wanted to end the war, but she would keep combat troops in Iraq who would continue combat missions in Iraq. Saying that she would stand up to George Bush on the issue of going to war in Iran, but voting for a resolution in the Senate that enabled George Bush to do exactly what he wanted to do. Saying that she didn't want to change anything about Social Security in public, but then in private saying she might be for raising the cap on the Social Security tax. See, my view is, we need to say the same thing all the time."



Display:


That inevitability sheen (2.00 / 7)

seems to be wearing off.


by okamichan13 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 10:40:54 AM EST

Re: That inevitability sheen (none / 0)

actually you might want to check the frontpage of rasmussen to get confirmation of that .

74% see clinton as likely to win the nomination, no debate fall out.

So don't confuse the chattering class with reality , they are usually wrong.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 10:50:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe thats how Hillary should answer too (2.00 / 7)

every time she gets a tough question, just say something like "But look at the polls, I'm winning!!!!"


by okamichan13 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 10:53:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

should Co- title (2.00 / 2)

diary "the New Dean Scream"

I think Hillary killed herself for the general if not the primary with that horrible debate performance and self inflicted wounds


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 10:57:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: should Co- title (2.00 / 2)

I think thats over the top. It may have changed the narrative a little, but that doesn't mean the primary is even remotely over or that she can't win the general. It does however do something I wanted to have happen- turn this hopefully into a real discussion about whom we want to lead  the party rather than a coronation by spin, arm twisting, and inertia.


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:03:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: should Co- title (none / 0)

I can sense your delight at that thought that she damaged herself for the general election , why not just start performing catwills at the end zone for Guiliani or Romney . That would seem to be fitting for you.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:07:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: should Co- title (2.00 / 1)

and now we go off the deep end. i actually agreed that its over the top to claim this damaged clinton that much. but then you turn right around and go over the top the other way- why don't  you just say "you are either for us or against us" and other such patriotic musings.


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:10:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: should Co- title (none / 0)

em , I wasn't responding to you.  


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:12:04 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: should Co- title (none / 0)

you are on a public blog. meaning anyone can respond to anyone.


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:24:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

if you're male (2.00 / 1)

maybe you can't respond to a female, or something like that.
you sexist
McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:27:38 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: if you're male (2.00 / 1)

no i think they just don't want to hear things that disagree with them. one of many ploys i've seen. i am not quite sure why they post in a public space if  they have such problems with disagreement.


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:42:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: if you're male (none / 0)

seriously man, what is wrong with you?


by alipi on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 01:22:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

taking the high road (none / 0)

as usual


"I never give them hell. I just tell the truth and they think it's hell." Democrat Party "Hack" and President Harry S Truman
by holden caulfield on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 03:09:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: should Co- title (none / 0)

Did you check that at all ?


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:13:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: should Co- title (none / 0)

sorry i didn't provide a poll result for you to understand.


by bruh21 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:25:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maybe its time to bring the Haircut (none / 0)

this is the dumbest possible response you could have given. What he said was completely true. If you disagree, give some reasons why.


by alipi on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:34:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That inevitability sheen (none / 0)

hahahah thats funny. 77% - 74% is not a big shift and within the MOE.


vote blue in 2008
by sepulvedaj3 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 12:40:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That inevitability sheen (none / 0)

its not actually. Its WITHIN THE MARGIN OF ERROR, therefore NOT STATISTICALLY DIFFERENT.


by alipi on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:34:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

They just want a story (none / 0)

They have cable news programs to fill and they want a story.

I think Clinton is being smart not to give them one.  She is keeping her powder dry in the oppo department.  

After the Sunday talk shows this story is over unless new polling shows a dip.


by dpANDREWS on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 01:13:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: That inevitability sheen (2.00 / 2)

I suppose that it should come as no surprise that a Clinton supporter would ignore this obvious and blatant parsing. It isn't as if she changed position over the course of a few years. This clearly demonstrates that she changes positions over the course of two hours and in some instances two minutes.

The questions you Clinton supporters need to ask yourself are:

Is this really the type of Democratic leader you support?

Is a President that speaks the truth with conviction even important to you?

Or is victory the goal?


If it's good enough for Joey it's good enough for Hillary! Like two peas in a pod.
by Hillary Lieberman on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 01:19:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: fun with numbers (2.00 / 2)

The Pew Research Center did a poll. Respondents were asked to name a presidential candidate.

78% could name Hillary Clinton
62% could name Barack Obama
28% could name John Edwards

there's no way to know how many of that 78% also named other candidates, so there's a limit to the conclusions that can be drawn. how do we know how many of those who say she's the likely nominee even know who else is running?

i can't help noticing the correlation between the 78% who can name Clinton as a candidate and the 77% who think she will be the nominee. could this be a simple case of name recognition... making the 'likely nominee' result rather meaningless? at the very least, i think it makes the 'likely nominee' figure less valuable as a predictor.

just saying.
it's hard to put much predictive value in any poll. here's a link to raw story with the pew poll's pdf link at the bottom of the story.


by irene adler on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 01:49:33 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: fun with numbers (none / 0)

Sounds like Edwards better hurry up and work on his name recognition if he wants to win the nomination.


by hwc on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 03:23:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: fun with numbers (none / 0)

the good news is... that's the easiest part.


by irene adler on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 03:50:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The politics of parsing (2.00 / 4)

That video is great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


by TomP on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 10:47:42 AM EST

Re: The politics of parsing (2.00 / 2)

I'm glad that Edwards is doing all this dirty work.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 10:49:16 AM EST

Obama wants to let others (2.00 / 1)

take on Hillary and reap the benefits later.

Don't think it's going to work out the way he thinks it will. But clearly that is his strategy.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:03:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama wants to let others (2.00 / 1)

Well, actually Obama is going after Hillary...he's just doing sans theatrics.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:19:34 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama chides Clinton for playing gender card (none / 0)

do you mean this....

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsN ews/idUSN0254101120071102?feedType=RSS&a mp;feedName=politicsNews&rpc=22& sp=true

it is so great what Obama is doing. it is so grown up!


by aiko on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:23:31 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama chides Clinton for playing gender card (2.00 / 1)

Right, Clinton would love it if Obama attacked her like Edwards is. But Obama is just being honest, and smartly using it as an opportunity to show that he won't be playing grievance politics.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:28:23 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama chides Clinton for playing gender card (none / 0)

Oh please. Obama has made it abundantly clear that he will play whatever variety of politics it takes to win.


by alipi on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:36:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

good for him!!! (none / 0)

i only wish i agreed...


"Anyone who voted for me or caucused for me has so much more in common with Senator Obama than Senator McCain." -- Hillary Clinton
by bored now on Sat Nov 03, 2007 at 08:39:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Hillaryious (2.00 / 1)

so funny.. great..

spread it far and wide


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 10:49:50 AM EST

Re: The politics of parsing (2.00 / 8)

That's even a better demolition job than the Daily Show's version.  It's Day Three and the media is still running this story.  You know, she really didn't do anything much different in that debate, I guess she's just perceived as getting caught on camera doing it.  A day is a long time in politics.


by Shaun Appleby on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 10:53:33 AM EST

Exactly (2.00 / 3)

she pretty much did the same thing this time as every other debate, but she got called on it and it was more obvious.


by okamichan13 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 10:58:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The politics of parsing (2.00 / 1)

Yes, and Obama did a good job this morning of keeping it a story, but once again, doing it with unassailable grace.

Taylor Marsh must be going crazy.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 10:59:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Maybe even taylor (none / 0)

will admit Hillary has damaged herself hard for the general with that debate performance..


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:00:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Maybe even taylor (2.00 / 1)

Perhaps, but Taylor is a tough not to crack.

But she's made a fool out of herself for the last few days.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:02:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Thats what she gets (2.00 / 1)

for being a point person for the Clinton campaign's talking points.


by okamichan13 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:05:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Dan Abrams (2.00 / 1)

asked her several times name one commment from russert or any other candidate that was sexist.

she couldn't


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:28:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Dan Abrams (none / 0)

She was a train wreck. Quite hysterical really.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:40:26 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The politics of parsing (2.00 / 5)

Actually Jon Stewart invented what could become the key term that defines Clinton "I support/oppose, ...I sup-pose".


by desmoulins on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 01:14:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The politics of parsing (none / 0)

It seems like Hillary supporters reserve a special hatred for Edwards which Obama escapes.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 10:54:20 AM EST

Re: The politics of parsing (none / 0)

I think they get it from Hillary herself.

Every time Edwards is talking during the debates, you can see Hillary's eyes just shooting lasers at him.

Kind of funny, actually.


by Bush Bites on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 12:06:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The politics of parsing (none / 0)

I personally get it from just about every Edwards headline I read. But maybe you're right, and everyone else is channeling Hillary Clinton


by alipi on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:37:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

It appeards that Hillary (2.00 / 5)

is ganging up on herself!


by okamichan13 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 10:57:31 AM EST

Re: The politics of parsing (2.00 / 3)

I know, it's so not right for Hillary to pile on Hillary. Guess even women can be sexist against women.


"Well Hillary, I looking forward to you advising me as well." - Barack Obama
by General Sherman on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:03:26 AM EST

Hillary is such a sexist (2.00 / 2)

beating up herself like that


McCain - a serial Opportunist, from marriage to policy positions
by TarHeel on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:14:11 AM EST

And the point is what? (1.00 / 3)

Oooooh that Edwards, he's soooo tough! The Terminator with a fancy haircut. I guess Hillary just got hair sprayed. Don't worry, he's nearly down to his last can.


by superetendar on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:36:00 AM EST

Re: And the point is what? (none / 0)

and how about attacking Hillary for giving away her dog? Does that sound like something a Republican might do?


by alipi on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:39:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Instant classic as far as political ads go (2.00 / 3)

Absolute creative genius put this together.

I posted a comment over at daily kos which goes into my reasoning but it just answers the piling on ad( Russert voice in this is calm and measured so you find yourself saying piling on? Uh no... simple question.

Sweet music, not mean, carries the viewer and Hillary parsing along to the high point of her exceptionally convoluted drivers licenses answer.

Just devastating because it is humorous.

Instant , instant classic ad.

Should go viral immediately


by merbex on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 12:01:22 PM EST

Re: Instant classic as far as political ads go (2.00 / 1)

This AD is being played on Ed Schultz's radio program this morning and will be all over the TV shows today and this evening.

The gender card is backfiring.

Clinton will not appeal to women voters by
appearing weak and needing sympathy votes.  My
wife is a strong woman and she is absolutely
livid that Hillary is trying to play the "tough
woman" card, and when questioned, plays
the "sympathy" card.  It is really a disgusting display for all women out there who are trying to develop respect through hard work and integrity, not some sympathy campaign.

My wife who was leaning towards Clinton has now become un-decided.


by BDM on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 12:50:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Politics of Parsing: Hillary vs. Hillary (none / 0)

This is a Bad to the Bone Ad from Edwards. It doesn't get any better than this.

WOWZERS!


If it's good enough for Joey it's good enough for Hillary! Like two peas in a pod.
by Hillary Lieberman on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 01:14:24 PM EST

Re: The Politics of Parsing: Hillary vs. Hillary (2.00 / 1)

Absolutely devasting ad!


A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy. - Teddy Roosevelt
by minvis on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 01:18:55 PM EST

childish (none / 0)

I doubt Team Clinton will respond to Edwards/Obama's childish attack directly. They are just falling directly into her trap...


by prisonbreak on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 01:25:28 PM EST

Re: childish (2.00 / 2)

Clinton saying she should be the nominee because she's tough doesn't bode well when she goes and says she's getting picked on because she's a woman and it's not fair.  

What kind of trap is that?  Her being completely two-faced, but showing both sides to everyone?  


by JeremiahTheMessiah on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 01:46:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: childish (none / 0)

can you post the link to where she said this?


by alipi on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 09:40:10 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: childish (none / 0)

These people are so deluded.  They are absolutely euphoric in their false hopes.


by reasonwarrior on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 10:55:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Why would ANYONE vote for this-? (none / 0)



Hillary Clinton supporters have some 'splaining to do.

The Queen has no clothes.
The cat is out of the bag.

Hillary Clinton is the Democrats Rudy Guilliani and no more.

Both will lose.
And both deserve to.




For a "surge" in Truth:  Say NO to NeoCons!!!
by DerekLarsson on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 01:48:57 PM EST

Edwards is asking the Moral Test of our Generation (2.00 / 1)

John Edwards is making the case for fixing the Washington System, and putting the People back in the Driver's Seating.

It is not an accident that the government of the United States cannot function on behalf of its people, because it is no longer our people's government - and we the people know it.

This corruption did not begin yesterday - and it did not even begin with George Bush - it has been building for decades - until it now threatens literally the life of our democracy.
...

And in Iraq - while our nation's brave sons and daughters put their lives on the line for our country - we now have mercenaries under their own law while their bosses sit at home raking in millions.  
...

It goes on every minute of every day.
...

Companies like Wal-Mart lobby against inspecting containers entering our nation's ports, even though expert after expert agrees that the likeliest way for a dirty bomb to enter the United States is through a container, because they believe their profits are more important than our safety.  What has become of America when America's largest company lobbies against protecting America?
...

This is not the America I believe in.

The hubris of greed knows no bounds.  Days after the homeland security bill passed, staffers from the homeland security department resigned and became homeland security consultants trying to cash in.  And, where was the outrage? There was none, because that's how it works in Washington now.  It is not a Republican revolving door or a Democratic revolving door - it is just the way it's done.
...

Today Hillary Clinton has taken more money from Washington lobbyists than any candidate from either party - more money than any Republican candidate.
...

The long slow slide of our democracy into the corporate abyss continues unabated regardless of party, regardless of the best interests of America.

We have a duty - a duty to end this.

I believe you cannot be for change and take money from the lobbyists who prevent change.  You cannot take on the entrenched interests in Washington if you choose to defend the broken system.

http://blog.johnedwards.com/story/2007/1 0/29/13137/905
----

Corporations and their Lobbyists may be "People too" --
But our Constitution was NOT created FOR or BY these "Corporate Persons".

It's time for The People, average citizens, to Take their Country Back,
from the "status quo" Elites who would Outsource everything!
(including their own responsibility for anything, BTW)

It's time to Outsource the "Status Quo"!  


by jamess on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 01:51:07 PM EST

Another video on the Hillary campaign (none / 0)

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ciq8WtsxwoQ"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ciq8WtsxwoQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>


by DrFrankLives on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 02:31:04 PM EST

Re: The Politics of Parsing: Hillary vs. Hillary (2.00 / 1)

http://www.youtube.com/v/Ciq8WtsxwoQ


by DrFrankLives on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 02:31:31 PM EST

Re: The Politics of Parsing: Hillary vs. Hillary (none / 0)

An absolutely brutal ad, as others have said. Not high production quality, but hey, it's YouTube. If lots of people see this, Senator Clinton will definitely be hurting.

It's not altogether fair, I'll be the first to admit. But the Clinton cronies haven't been too fair to Obama (shallow stupid black rhetorician!) or Edwards (manicured haircut!), either, so I'm not losing any sleep over it.


by Zephyrus on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 02:55:51 PM EST

Her ad didn't quite work... (none / 0)

<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ciq8WtsxwoQ"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Ciq8WtsxwoQ" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

http://www.youtube.com/v/Ciq8WtsxwoQ


by DrFrankLives on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 03:04:20 PM EST

It occurs to me that (2.00 / 1)

this could end up being a bigger deal than it is right now. What this means now is that Hillary will not be able to continue answering questions with her typical evasive style. Because of this she will now be forced to answer questions much more directly than previously because everyone will be listening to see if she gives a direct answer or doesn't.

She's going to have a real hard time with that...


by Mystylplx on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 05:52:51 PM EST

Re: It occurs to me that (none / 0)

Let's see if she's capable of quitting the doublespeak.


by Mystylplx on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 07:35:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Which means we'll see more doubletalk n/t (none / 0)


by okamichan13 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:38:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Politics of Parsing: (none / 0)

This is risky for him- from what I understand, one of the reasons Gephardt and Dean tanked in Iowa was because of the attacks on each other.  We'll see how it plays out - it might- but there's also a good chance it won't.


by reasonwarrior on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 10:51:47 PM EST

Except he's not attacking her here (none / 0)

she's attacking herself.


by okamichan13 on Fri Nov 02, 2007 at 11:38:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]


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